catfight - this generation’s “it” lesbian short film, by tara devi
starring Blessing Kingsley and Grace Indira
An interview by irene dumas from the dirty dyke team
interviewees: @taradev1_ , @boceankingsley , @grace__indira interviewer: @ireenedumas
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1. What does desire look like in boxing before it becomes romantic to you?
“THE INTIMACY CAN BE SEEN IN HOW WE LOOK AT EACH OTHER”
Grace: “I feel like there's a lot of build up in the way... We portray it as warming up. There's a lot of ways to build that physical intimacy before actual contact, especially because it's such a physical violence sport. Some of the intimacy can be seen with how we look at each other in the build-up and the warm-up. There's a lot of tension. There's a lot of energy that you feel that's building up to when we do finally touch.”
Blessing: “I agree with Grace. A lot of the energy that we feel beforehand is the glances, the looks, the warming up, it's the same if you're an actual fight with your competitor. You're watching each other from across the room, you're checking their body language, you're analysing what their skills are based on what you can see before you even step into the ring.”
2. What did you intentionally do with your timing and your body to make it feel authentic to your audience?
how did you individually approach this closeness So it reads to the audience as heat as well as precision, never soft or cute or romantic, but genuine?
“We intentionally filmed the amount of effort and power we were putting into our punches. We weren't going light, we were really putting a lot of energy and a lot of passion, and it was important to showcase that visually. In the lead up to us finally having contact in the ring, the way we touched the boxing bag in order to get a good look at each other was something me and Grace really put intention behind, and taking every moment that we had to look at each other as much as possible, so the intensity carried through to our audience.”
“I agree. It was really important for us not to make it like cute and really show that passion in a way lesbian couples aren't really portrayed all the time within media. We wanted that authenticity and raw hunger that is so present within lesbianism to be visible.”
3. boxers communicate control in a constant manner, how did you approach portraying this within the film in such a short time span?
Tara [Director]: “For this film, it was super important to have the two of them going back and forth, where one of them had control for a period of time and then the other one had more control. It was kind of a push and pull and a give and take between the two of them. What makes it super strong is because both of them have some of that control throughout the whole thing and it's not that one is dominating the other, or one is more important. Having that balance of the two and letting one lead for a little bit and then having the other one lead and going back and forth is what made it really strong.
Grace: “Tara did a really amazing job at directing it to portray that. For example, at the end, I'm on top, but I wasn't in control for the entirety of the fight. There was a lot of interplay and it was super fun to film.”
Blessing: “I think also how the makeup was incorporated into the short film is really important. You can see in a couple of scenes that I'm really, really, really battered up. Even in the photoshoot, you can see it as well. There is a surrender of my control, even though I'm the more masculine presenting character in the short film, I still am letting Grace take that control and really be in control over me. So makeup is a huge thing that we used to really translate that.”
Tara [Director]: “Makeup was definitely important because the idea of the rounds was for them to get more intense with every round. And that went for body language, and it went for the way that they kind of communicated between each other. The bruising and the clothing each had a meaning behind them. Each round was less layers of clothing. Each round was more blood, more bruising, more cuts, more exhaustion. I think that really portrays the film’s energy, all of those elements help the build up of the film to get you to that final point.”
4. This film does not feel cute and it doesn’t feel soft, but still vulnerability is visible. How did you make it feel vulnerable in a way that didn’t also communicate weakness?
Tara [Director]: “It was a combination of things, but boxing was definitely the main element in making it not soft, because boxing is a fighting sport, so it automatically and by nature isn't soft, right? But also I've seen so many different lesbian pieces of media where they were directed by a man, made by a man, done through a man's eye, and somehow it always comes across... girly or soft or too stereotypical. It almost reminds me of porn directed by men, where queer women are featured. Men who make porn of two women is always going to be different than if it's a sexual piece that is made by women who actually love women. You can always tell the difference, and it directly translates into film it just like it translates into everything. The authenticity that undeniably comes when a queer woman directs something involving queer women is so special, I wanted to portray how women are naturally. Not every woman is soft and not every woman has to have 100% of femininity. People being who they are and humans being the way they are is the most beautiful thing and portraying something to be softer, portraying something to be more vulnerable or feminine is not always the reality. In real life, not every woman is that soft ideal that, you know, certain men have or the way that the women have generally been portrayed in media.”
Grace: “Some of the moments were super special in that aspect. One of my favorites was a really short clip where our hands, interlocked and my knuckles are super bloody. It was just really important to show that while we're fighting, it's still a really intimate, shared moment between us. And I'm on top, but we're doing this together, you know? So that was my favorite moment of softness that isn't really portrayed in a normal vulnerable way. And I think round three also has that, where we are both in our own corners and we’re kind of having that back and forth look. I think that's really vulnerable as well.”
Blessing: “For me it was the moment before the kiss. The heavy panting, the breathing, the touch, you can very clearly see the vulnerability and the want that we had for each other that's built up over the couple rounds. That build up before the kiss is a big moment because you see just how that vulnerability has been morphed and changed from it being very aggressive in the couple rounds, to truly a release at the end.”
5. Hunger was a big part of the film. In what way did you choose to express it? As stamina, appetite, urgency, competitiveness, need…?
Blessing: “There's a moment that I think really captures the way I expressed my character’s hunger. It was when I hit the, the gloves together a little bit, and it's a little cocky. I think that was me expressing hunger through competitiveness and cockiness. In that moment, you can see that I'm trying to assert even more dominance, even though I may be winning or losing. It really is just trying to get a bit more assertiveness with a bit more power play.”
Tara [Director]: “Every round had more intensity in their hunger. Before round one, when they first see each other on screen, it was like they connected through their inexplicable desire for each other. Connection through just, you know, Blessing being a little bit cocky and leaning over to get the gloves when she didn't have to lean over, she could have gone around. So there’s that intention. And just that kind of starts that build-up. It starts the pouring in, you know, drip by drip.
Round one, they're already interacting, but not really. They're just in the same room doing their own workout.
Round two, they start interacting even more, they're looking at each other, and then they start boxing. So, like, that's, you know, their first kind of real... intimate moment.
Round three, that buildup is like almost at the cusp because they're kind of looking at each other from across the rink and they're both bloody, but they don't mind being bloody and they're having fun and they're doing this together. And it's a fun moment for them, but at the same time it’s raw in terms of like, their fun and their vulnerability is just who they are. Rather than it being only a match or only a game or only a round of sport.
And then the cherry on top of the cake is that tumble over for round four. That's where the build up really came to an end. This is the top of whatever we were going for, or whatever we were driving towards. Then that kiss and the confetti, that was, you know, the finale. The ball drop. The release of everything they had built together.
Grace: “There's a couple moments throughout the film where you feel the buildup is coming to an end, and then we actually end up going to trip it back a little. You think more is going to happen and it doesn't. So then by the time it actually does, you're like, oh, it's got to happen. The buildup was super fun to portray in the rounds. That was really fun for me. I really like the teasing sort of aspect of the push-pull. It made the kiss that much hotter, and that much more special.”
6. Why did you end up choosing boxing?
What does the sport uniquely allow you to express about attraction, especially involving two Women? what couldn't you say as clearly in, for example, a non-sport setting or another sport?
Tara [Director]: “Honestly, it was kind of like a gamble for me because initially this whole thing started by watching Heated Rivalry, which is obviously hockey. I was trying to figure out what sport could be fun to portray a lesbian twist in and I thought about how boxing in general is quite a masculine sport, because of its male-dominated field, which intrigued me. But it was also the fact that it's a sport between two people. If we did football or Gaelic or another team sport, it wouldn’t be as intimate as two boxers fighting each other. I think we came upon boxing because it's one of the only sports that is super, super physical contact. It's the perfect way to display it. Also, the short amount of time that we have in a short film. With Heated Rivalry, they had a lot of time to build that up and incorporate the team, but this allowed us to do it pretty immediately to show the intimacy.”
Both of the actresses have some sort of athletic background. Blessing is a professional football player, whereas Grace used to do a fighting sport called Tegumi (also called Dejiru or Muta in different Okinawan dialects), so that aspect was built into them already, the intensity and hardworking nature of an athlete was something we made good use of.
Blessing: “Yeah, it was definitely fun having, like, as an athlete myself, having a background in doing it in sport was very comfortable for me. But it was so great to learn from Grace because Grace has a history in fighting. So, yeah, I was definitely able to play on our chemistry and figure that out.”
7. when discussing tropes and representation in media, why do you think that this story or this film avoids the usual shorthand?
what trope do you think you were resisting when you were creating this film? What did you not want viewers to see?
Tara [Director]: “I didn't want it to be too overly sexualized. That was my number one thing. I wanted it to be subliminal. I didn't want it to be too much on the nose, I wanted to make it so if you watched it more than once you put the pieces of the puzzle together, and could maybe understand what it's about without me having to tell you what it's about. I love making things that aren’t too obvious, for my audience to think about it themselves, to ask themselves: why is each round more sweaty? Why is each round two to three hours apart? What do the rounds represent? They're not just boxing rounds, they have more meaning to that. To me, it was like sexual rounds, I just didn't want it to be too obvious. I didn't want it to be too over-sexualized.”
Blessing: “I was gonna say Tara did a great job at planning out the rounds and the timing. Then the final climax, I think was pure genius with the confetti. We didn't want it to be in a way that it's portrayed very stereotypical. I feel like usually one’s definitely more dominant, one's masculine and one's feminine and, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, but in this film we're both powerful, strong, and there's such an interplay between our energies that nobody's really overtaking each other.”
Grace: I think as well, like Tara said, it's very on the nose but still sublime. So the energy you feel, people watching it can say it's very steamy, very hot, all those things, but technically we don't kiss until the very end. So it's like you still are translating that energy, that desire, but without being completely explicit, which I think is so attractive.”
8. What did you want viewers to especially feel or recognize in the film that other media, whether it be sapphic media that is directed by other women or sapphic media that is directed by men, what did you want viewers to feel that they perhaps wouldn't feel from other media?
Tara [Director]: “I think that's an interesting question because what people feel watching other media is quite subjective. Like something that I'd watch and I'd feel like is cheating for somebody, it'd be their everyday life and that's how they act and that's how they are, you know? I suppose the one thing is I wanted everybody to feel human and to feel seen, to be a piece of media that feels real rather than acting because I think that the way they interact with each other is quite human. In real life, when you see somebody that you like or that you find attractive, it always starts with the gazes and it always starts with a little hello or a little glance, and you see them for the first time, you're shy. Second time, you have a little bit more confidence. Third time, you're already chopping it up. Fourth time, you might go on a date. I just tried to make it look real rather than just like a fantasy storyline, best case scenario.”
Grace: “Most of the time in lesbian relationships, I think you're nervous to talk to the person for the first time. There's a lot of stuff going through your head, and I like how there wasn't really an explicit conversation between Blessing and I, and instead, we drew it out as long as we could, you know? And I feel like that happens a lot in lesbian relationships when you're getting to know each other, and it made the dynamic so much more digestible and real.”
Blessing: “I agree with Grace in that it just really represents that desire, hunger for a person, without even having to have a conversation because sometimes it's a lot of what you're communicating without even communicating that you want the person. You can feel the energy, you can feel the vibe that this person really wants you, but you're kind of like, where do I go next? So I can see it with how I'm winning in some scenes and then Grace has the power over me in some scenes so it's sort of like this dance between each other.”
9. When casting/creating the performances, what were you specifically looking for, beyond acting ability?
Tara [Director]: “I mean, I think their athletic backgrounds definitely helped. I think people that don't have experience in this could have been casted, but it might have been more effort on the day to try and get them to swing correctly or kick correctly or do 27 push-ups in a row when we're trying to film one little scene. If the person wasn’t athletic, it'd be a lot harder for them to look a little bit more natural doing those push-ups, right? But outside of that and inside of acting, I know we did initially have this idea of having one more feminine presenting woman and one more masculine presenting woman just by the way they look, and then have both of them be going back and forth and have that equality between the two of them. We knew Grace was gonna be one of the people acting, and Blessing was the second person we were trying to look for. Funny enough, I reached out to Blessing and she was down, ready to go, but something popped up and we thought we were gonna have to find somebody else. We eventually did find somebody else, but it didn't feel right, so then when Blessing came back, I was so grateful. And I'm so happy that that happened because look at the way it turned out. It had to be them two, I think.”
Grace: “I think the way that we are portrayed differently physically, Blessing is very strong and then I thrive in dexterity. I thought that was really, really cool. With the kicking and the punching. Blessing during her push-ups, which she did 27 times for that scene. Really impressive. I definitely wanted to cast another person of color, which I really, really respect. I think it's amazing to have two women of color in a film like this. That was super important to me.”
Blessing: “Yeah, even from the response, it was just great to see so many people happy to see stud representation, especially in media. Any time to put studs on the map and just highlight how complex we are with masculinity and femininity, that's huge for me. It was very nice to be, you know, the stud representation that I could be in that moment.”
10. If you each had one sentence you’d want printed in the article, something like “desire looks like *blanK* because *blank*” what would it be?
tara [Director]:
“Desire is a raw feeling you can’t really fake or brush off, it’s a beautiful part of wanting someone, and it’s what makes the finale exciting. It’s a stepping stone that makes the chase so much more special.”
grace:
“This kind of reminds me of a sentence I read: I don’t need you soft and easy, I need you exactly as you are. Like tara said desire is raw and uncontrollable and authentic. That’s what it feels like to be queer and to fully embrace being a woman who unapologetically desires and craves other women!”
blessing:
“Desire is something that ignites you from within. It’s unfiltered, raw and hard to ignore. It’s a feeling where every fibre of your being craves to be deeply embraced by another woman!”
